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Hannah: Welcome to Happily Ever After the podcast, which seems to talk about all sorts of different things. But one listener described it as the place where we talk about what everyone else is thinking, but maybe not saying out loud. I am your host, Hannah Harvey. I'm a writer and a parenting blogger at Mums' Days dot com. That's M.U.M.S.D.A.Y.S dot com. If you wouldn't mind subscribing and leaving a review, that will be amazing because it basically means more people can find the podcast. And I also would really, really, really love to hear from you. So please could you contact me through Instagram @MumsDays? You can message me anything, really, but you know your stories of life and heartbreak or any thoughts you might have on the episode or any questions you want answering. And as always, you can find the details from this episode in the show notes.
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Hannah: Welcome to Happily Ever After with me, Hannah Harvey. And today I am joined by my podcasting regular sister Katie, who is my good friend from way back and helps me to produce this podcast.
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Katie: Hi, everybody. Hi, Hannah.
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Hannah: Hello, Katie. So over the years, Katie and I have been single from time to time. It's been known and we've been chatting about it because we're both keen readers and we would like to share basically our favourite books that have really helped us during this time. Because when you're single it can feel a bit sad and a bit shit and a bit Why does nobody love me? But it can also feel incredibly freeing and exciting and liberating. And these are the books that helped us feel the latter rather than the former.
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Katie: Yeah, I must admit it was more of the former than the latter. But you know, these are the things that helped us get there, isn't it?
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Hannah: Yeah. When I first split up with my kids Dad, I vividly remember a conversation with my brother where he was really encouraging me to be single for a while, and I was like, Yeah, I can do that. I'm going to be a single strong woman who doesn't need a man or any external validation because I'm great, just as I am. And then I remembered.
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Katie: Here you are. You are great just as you are.
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Hannah: I know. But then I was like, Do you remember that bit in Bridget Jones's Diary? When Mr. Darcy says, I love you just as you are? And I'm like, Oh, but I really want that. And yeah, at times you can feel like I'm just going to be a lonely old spinster forever. But it's. Yeah. It's tricky because when you first split up with someone, especially if you had your heart broken or you were rejected in any way. I found that it then made me really want male attention. And there's a horrible saying, which I apologise now, but it's you can't get over someone unless you get under someone else.
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Katie: Oh, dear.
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Hannah: So gross. But I think our brains do a little bit of like you need, you know. That's the external validation I need to remind me that I'm a great person.
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Katie: We Love it.
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Hannah: We love it. So rude. Yeah, it's that numbing feeling of having exciting sex with somebody new. That is a distraction.
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Hannah: And feeds your ego a little bit. But it's only for a short time, right? And, well, we're actually going to talk about this exact thing at some during this podcast because it's in one of your books. So we'll come back to that because it is just a sticking plaster. And these books that we're talking about today are the books that helped us through the worst parts of our break-ups. And also, I would say through the worst parts of relationships.
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Hannah: Because they taught us really valuable things about ourselves and the world of love and relationships and co-dependency and addiction and loads more. So I think whether you're single or not. You will really enjoy these books and they have a really strong power to change the way we view the world and to step away from the drama which is addiction in itself, and to stop running through red flags, especially when you're vulnerable and early into single life because it's so tempting, because it's so distracting and fun and exciting. But yeah, the whole point of these books, these are the ones that put us in the forefront. Of all of our future decisions because they teach us about ourselves and making sure that we are caring about ourselves. Which leads me nicely onto RuPaul. At the end of every drag race, this is said for a reason, and it is if you can't love yourself, how in the hell are you going to love somebody else?
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Katie: Can I get an amen?
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Hannah: But he says it because it's fucking true.
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Katie: Yes, that is true.
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Hannah: And I think the ultimately, the the bad feeling you feel when you're single is. I'm not enough.
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Katie: Yeah. Yeah.
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Hannah: And then you make bad decisions based on that. Whereas we want to come at love from a place of we love ourselves. So I'm going to get something that I truly deserve. Okay. Tell us your first book.
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Katie: So the first book I'm going to talk about is Everything I Know About Love by Dolly Alderton. And this book came at me at a time where I really needed it, I think so. I've always been a big fan of Dolly's. I used to listen religiously to her podcast, The High Low with Pandora Sykes and they kind of became like, it was like there were friends of mine, which I'm aware that they are not. But it felt like that at the time. And so she did a lot of talking about writing the book in the lead up, and I was really excited for it to come out. And then when it did, I went and bought it straight away and devoured it in about two days. And it's just like a beautiful book about female friendship more than anything else. It's like her memoir. It's her story of her sort of her twenties and her early thirties and everything that she goes through and exactly all those feelings you've just been talking about, sort of seeking external validation from men leaning on her friends. And it just made me feel a lot less alone in a time when I needed it. So Dolly was my friend. She was there for me.
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Hannah: Oh, good old Dolly.
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Katie: Yeah. It was really nice and really relatable. And I just wanted to there's a quote from the book that really sort of sums it up, and I just wanted to read you that it's when you're looking for love, it seems like you might not ever find it. Remember, you probably have access to it in abundance already. Not just the romantic kind. This kind of love might not kiss you in the rain or propose marriage, but it will listen to you, inspire and restore you. It will hold you when you cry. Celebrate when you're happy and sing All Saints with you when you're drunk. Yeah. It's nice, isn't it? You have so much to gain and learn from this kind of love. You can carry it with you forever. Keep it as close as you can. So, yeah, that's what Dolly says. I know. Isn't that lovely? Yeah. So that's. That's a really good one to read. If you're feeling like relying on your female, not just female, your friendship's more than you are your romantic relationships, because those people are there for us too. And I think that's so important.
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Hannah: Definitely. When I split up with my kids Dad. The friends that I have during that period are going to be friends for life.
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Hannah: And it became a much closer knit group as well.
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Katie: And those friendships are so special, aren't they, you know.
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Hannah: The ones that I'll hear all of the bullshit all of the time and tell you straight, like whether you're being crazy or not, or just be there for you.
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Katie: That's lovely.
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Hannah: Do you have it there?
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Katie: I do. This is my actual copy of Everything I Know About Love from that time.
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Hannah: Just for the sake of the video. [which you can see @mumsdays on instagram]
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Hannah: There it is. Yeah. Cool. My book. My first book is kind of obvious, but it's the Unexpected Joys of Being Single by Catherine Grey. And, yeah, I first read Catherine's book, Unexpected Joys of Being Sober like, a few years before and absolutely loved it. So when I found this book in my local bookshop, which is The Forum Bookshop, and Corbridge, FYI, at the time I was kind of newly into single life and it just sort of jumped off the shelf. So I went home and read it cover to cover, and I actually wrote about it straight afterwards. I wasn't really on doing social media or blogging or anything at the time, but I did write about this and put it on my Instagram, so I'll read what I put. So this is about maybe two and a half years ago now, and I've said...
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Hannah: I've barely been single since I was a teenager. So that part of my brain has no reference to reality. When I met my kids dad, age 26, I've been 'single' inverted commas for two months after a five year relationship. I was a big drinker. I was going out a lot and dating multiple guys. Not much time for working out who I really was when flying solo. My main focus was on getting attention from men for validation. I am worthwhile human being because that hammered dude says I'm pretty. Yeah. While the rest of me has grown up a little bit, as in I've now got kids the single part of my brain has started to complain and look for external validation. I finished the book today and it has given my 26 year old single brain the kick in the butt it needed to catch up with my 37-year-old-ness, the one that has ambitions and interests and so many exciting things to do. Everyone knows that a new love interest is an excruciating distraction. It's far too early days and I most definitely do not need one interfering with all the exciting stuff I've got going on. You and me and you and me. We're great as we are.
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Katie: We are.
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Hannah: Whether you're married or not, you are wonderful. Sorry. You are a wonderful individual person, and so am I. I've worked really hard to get to a place where I can do the things I love and that make me happy and. I want to keep doing that so I'm single and not ready to mingle high fives. I'll leave you with a quote from the book. It made me cry when I read it. Simple as it is so quote, Don't play it safe in your imaginings. Write a list of things you long for that don't include any kind of romantic entanglement and then go after them with all the caution and trepidation of a commet. And that's a quote from Catherine Grey.
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Katie: She's great. Hmm.
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Hannah: Good innit?!
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Katie: Mm really good.
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Hannah: I love that. Because it's so true. When you get in a relationship, there's so many things you have to take into consideration. And I know at this stage in my life, I had two young children. I didn't know where I was going to live. I knew I had a big divorce to go through. And I had all these ambitions. So why would I then want to add in a romantic entanglement? It's just crazy. And yet it's so alluring. And you still want that sort of you want to have a companionship with somebody else. But I think doing it so early on, you don't know who you are. You don't know what you're into anymore. You don't know what you like as a single person. And you just need to give yourself that space to breathe. And I think her book gives you the permission to be like, Actually, these are the good things and we're going to focus on those.
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Hannah: And I did for a bit and I did date a guy afterwards for about a year. But I think over the last two and a half years I've probably been single half of the time.
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Katie: Yeah. And that's like, I think it gives you the permission to focus on yourself during that time, doesn't it? And as women were so prone to, if there's a man in our lives immediately form everything around them, you know, and it's all about them and what they want and what am I going to be for them, you know? And she, Catherine says that you should focus on yourself and find out what that is, who you are as an individual. It's great for like if you're having that post-breakup identity crisis that I think we're all so prone to.
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Hannah: Yes. And I would say it's really helped me work out, like you say, what is I want. So going into this next relationship, I've been like, actually. I would like somebody to hang out with at the weekend. I don't want to worry about them during the week. I want to put my all my focus on the kids when I have them. I want to have autonomy over how I spend my time. The fact I go to bed at 7:15 the second I put my child to bed and lie in bed and read my book like I just yeah, it just gives me the freedom to do that. And I know lots of people will be in relationships and can do those things, and that's great too. And maybe I'll find that person in the future. But at the moment it feels like this is my time and that's time for having a bit of fun.
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Katie: Yeah. And if you if that's what you feel you need in order to make sure that you have your own time and a focus on yourself during it. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, you know?
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Hannah: Yeah. And I think if you're a people pleaser, it's almost essential.
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Katie: Exactly, otherwise you're not going to focus on yourself.
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Hannah: That you carve out that time because you just won't even even when you're like trying to, you just won't.
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Katie: Yeah. Even if even if the other person in the relationship actively wants you to have time on yourself and focus on yourself, sometimes we're just not like that. Sometimes it'll be forced, you know?
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Hannah: Totally. So, yes. Okay, so what's your next one?
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Katie: So the next book I'm going to talk about is called Come As You Are, which is a book about sex. So that's a pun, you see?
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Hannah: Oh, gross.
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Katie: I'm just going to share it for the video there. So actually, one of the things I want to talk about about this book is the cover, because when you look at this book, it's very Samantha Jones. It's got a bright pink cover with like an unzipped purse on the front that's meant to represent a vagina. And I must admit that the cover put me off at first. And I know that they say you should never judge a book by its cover. And that could not be more true in this circumstance.
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Hannah: I actually quite like the cover.
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Katie: Do you?
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Hannah: I think I do. I've been thinking about it and I was like, It doesn't upset me.
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Katie: No. Well, that's fine. It did me for some reason. I think I'm quite sort of I think I spent too much time, like in my twenties, reading Cosmo and learning how to give a blowjob the right way. And it sort of put me off any pro sex talk that's not, like, totally feminist, you know?
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Katie: Yeah. Like, because, you know, those articles in Cosmo, you know, the ones I'm talking about.
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Hannah: Yeah, but there's nothing wrong with learning how to give a good blowjob.
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Katie: No, there's not at all. Not at all, No. But it was very male focussed like sex advice in the..
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Hannah: How to please your man and be a good woman.
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Katie: Exactly it was all that. Yeah. And so I think it made me a bit anti sex advice, you know.
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Katie: So I had, I came to this book with a little bit of trepidation but it's, it was amazing. So it's not just about sex. It's actually a book about feminism. It's a book about trauma healing. It's a book about mindfulness. It's written by Dr. Emily Nagoski, who is just wonderful. She is also, I think, written books on taking time for yourself and not being burnt out and all of the things we need to do more of in life. And it just totally reframed the way that I thought about not only sex but about relationships, which I think if you're going through a Break-Up or something, it's like could be really important to look at.
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Hannah: I'd say almost essential.
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Katie: Yeah, yeah. But also it's really helpful for if you are already in a relationship because we, we all know that there are certain parts in relationships where you can lose the sex life part of it, you know, and, and it reframes your thinking for that as well. So it's a really important book for people who are in relationships as well. Even if you've got great sex life, honestly, I would really recommend it to anybody.
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Hannah: I can't wait.
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Katie: Yeah. So I picked a couple of quotes out of this one as well. And so the first one is healing hurts. If you break your leg, there's no stage in the healing process when your leg feels better than it does after it's healed. There is pain, itching and a loss of strength. From the moment your leg is broken, it continues to feel bad until gradually it starts to feel less bad. It's appropriate that it hurts. And the point that Dr. Nagoski is getting at with this quote is that that's not how we treat emotional pain or healing from trauma, from break-ups, from anything in our lives. And it's something that we need to do more. You know, and this is a perfect example about how it's not just a book about sex like it's if you we expect ourselves to be sexual beings regardless of what we've gone through, you know, and that's not always going to be the case. So we do need to give ourselves time to heal in certain situations.
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Hannah: Do you know what I mean about that, though, is when you break your leg, you can take a painkiller.
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Hannah: And the pain will go away and it will continue to heal. The only way we can not feel heartbreak is to numb.
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Hannah: And to do addictive things and things that release dopamine and whatever else. And they tend to be self destructive.
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Katie: Yeah. Or we look for that external validation, you know?
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Hannah: Yeah, because that is destructive if you're looking outside of yourself to feel better about stuff. There is just no way through the pain.
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Hannah: And every time that you numb. You're still going to wake up in the morning. So you get hammered one night. Go out and shag a guy. Your pain is still there in the morning and it's probably worse.
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Katie: And that's what we do instead of taking some paracetamol, which is what we would do if it was a broken limb.
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Hannah: Which it's like, okay to do.
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Katie: Yeah, totally. Yeah. It's like normal that we react the way that we do to like having a broken heart or having some trauma, you know?
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Hannah: Yeah, I suppose. Actually your book later on will also explain this about the here and now chemicals. So we'll get back to that. Yes. it all is not lost when it comes to heartbreak. There are things. And what was the other quote?
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Katie: So this one, which is, it will this is linked to what I'm going to talk about later in another book as well. But she says love is having and desire is wanting. And you can only want what you don't already have, which it was. That's her advice for sort of like how you keep your sex life alive. You know, like we only want what we don't already have.
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Hannah: Yeah, you love what you have, but you want what you don't have.
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Katie: Yeah. So it's no wonder that things can dry up a bit is what she's saying.
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Hannah: Things can dry up and you can start looking elsewhere.
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Katie: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.
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Hannah: For your wanting bits.
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Hannah: Okay. That sounds fascinating. That's a good one. Definitely. I'm going to listen to that in the car. So my next one and I. I read this like last week, but I really enjoyed it and I should have read it sooner. And the reason I read it is because of the other book we talked about a few weeks ago, which is called Burn Before Reading and. And basically I read this book because I wanted a bit of escapism and I wanted to read a novel. So it's called Rachel's Holiday and it's by Marianne Keyes. And I have literally carried this book to like five different houses and never actually read it. And then I finally did last week, and I was blown away by the fact that. I could relate to so much of it. So, yes, it's a romantic novel and it ends the way you would hope.
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Katie: A happily ever after. Some might say.
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Hannah: Yeah, but it's not until after she's been to hell and back. And after she spent a full year dealing with her addictions because she's an addict and being celibate. So she lives that single life, and it gives you a glimpse as to what you could have if you give yourself a chance. Which I really liked. Yeah, just lessons on addiction being single, external validation, all the things. And I also think a novel is basically a lovely way to get lost.
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Hannah: When you're having a hard time and you don't necessarily fancy reading a self-help book which can kind of feel like homework at times.
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Hannah: I tend to listen to self-help books when I'm driving in the car because it feels like I'm learning as I'm doing something quite important, whereas I'll read fiction because it's the way to unplug and to switch off. And like I say. As Daisy Buchanan says, and burn before reading and I paraphrase here, but she basically says that we're still learning crucial things about life and love and ourselves when we read novels. But it's in a much more relaxing way, so it allows us to unplug. So that's why I really wanted to include that in the list. But another great book by her was called The Break. And I actually read this when I was pregnant and still with my kids Dad. And it sort of took me through the process of what if we were to break up?
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Katie: It's a great one.
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Hannah: It's a really good one. And again, it ends happily ever after and all that kind of stuff. But it really takes you there and it really teaches you things about life and love and. How devastating it is to break up with somebody that you love.
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Katie: Yeah, because with Marianne Key's books, you really get into the characters like they're part of your life for a little bit. She's really great. So, yeah, it kind of takes you on that journey without going on it, doesn't it?
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Hannah: Yeah. And I think that's what Daisy's getting at in her book is saying, like, you can go there and learn so much about empathy and other people's lives by reading novels in a way that you maybe wouldn't if it was self help because you're just looking at yourself.
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00:23:38 - 00:23:42
Hannah: So that's my thought for that one. Have you got another one?
00:23:43 - 00:24:18
Katie: Yes, I do. So this kind of comes back to what I was saying before about desire. This is another book called The Molecule of More, and I heard about this book in Holly Whittaker's newsletter. She was mentioning it in a roundup of things she'd enjoyed in 2022. And it was just amazing. Like, it's a science book. It's about what's happening in the brain. So you kind of do need to pay attention to it a little bit. But honestly, it's made me feel completely differently about everything that I do on a daily basis.
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Hannah: All your motivation.
00:24:20 - 00:25:08
Katie: Exactly. All my motivation. So it's about dopamine, which is a chemical in the brain. And I think this book gave me the knowledge that I needed to not feel so bad about anything that I was desiring anymore. So basically, dopamine is a chemical in the brain that, well, in the book title is the molecule of more because that's what it is. It makes you want things. So things that can cause dopamine in the brain are sex, flirting, nice food smells. So if you smell like cookies baking, that can set off dopamine. Shopping. Drugs. Nicotine. Placing a bet. They're all dopamine things.
00:25:09 - 00:25:16
Hannah: But the point of it is, isn't it, that it's released in anticipation of doing the thing? You don't even need to do the thing.
00:25:16 - 00:25:39
Katie: Yeah, that's it. So. And the book frames it in a lot of different ways as well. So the first chapter actually was about how dopamine affects our relationships and love. And it gives you a lovely little story about a couple that get together and they have all of that initial dopamine focussed...
00:25:39 - 00:25:40
Hannah: Sexy love time.
00:25:40 - 00:27:20
Katie: Exactly. Sexy love time. Yeah, exactly. That bit at the beginning of the relationship that makes you want to never leave each other and makes you feel amazing, you know? And then eventually it takes them down a path where they're sort of quite used to each other, they're living together. And eventually I forget which one of them is, but one of them strays away from the relationship and cheats, and that's caused by them wanting to have that dopamine feeling in the brain because you don't get that through the entire relationship. So I'm not explaining this very well. So I'm going to read you a little excerpt from the book, which I think I'll explain it a bit better and then we can talk about it. So it says. Dopamine isn't the pleasure. I'll start that again. Dopamine isn't the pleasure molecule after all. It's the anticipation molecule to enjoy the things we have as opposed to the things that are only possible. Our brains must transmit from future oriented dopamine to present oriented chemicals. A collection of neurotransmitters we call the here and now molecules or H and N. Most people have heard of the H and N's. They include serotonin, oxytocin, endorphins, which are your brain's version of morphine and a class of chemicals called endocannabinoids, which are your brain's version of marijuana, as opposed to the pleasure of anticipation via dopamine. These chemicals give us pleasure from sensation and emotion. In fact, one of the endocannabinoid molecules is called too many science words.... anandamide
00:27:20 - 00:27:20
00:27:21 - 00:27:54
Katie: Anandamide. Named after a Sanskrit word which means joy, bliss and delight. So basically the dopamine is the one that makes you want things. That's the one that you get from all of those things that I've just listed. But other ones that you just described, serotonin and oxytocin, endorphins that you get from a relationship that you've been in for a long time from things like sensation and emotion. That's yeah, those are the here and now molecules. If that makes any sense.
00:27:54 - 00:28:11
Hannah: So presuming you're in a relationship where based on mutual trust. You love each other in the way that you each want to be loved. Like languages of love. Like those five languages of love stuff. And then hopefully you'll get those here and now molecules.
00:28:11 - 00:28:40
Katie: Exactly. Yeah. And you've got to you get to a point in your relationship where the dopamine isn't happening anymore and you've got to look to get the other brain chemicals, the serotonin, the oxytocin and the endorphins to keep you happy that the happy ones, you know. And that's why people cheat because they go out to seek the dopamine rush again. Yeah. Which you don't get anymore when you've been in a relationship for a long time. Yeah. So that's really interesting. But it applies to a lot of stuff as well.
00:28:40 - 00:28:44
Hannah: Yeah. You might not cheat. You might decide you're going to go take a load of drugs every now and again.
00:28:45 - 00:28:46
Katie: You might spend a load of money in the shops.
00:28:47 - 00:28:52
Hannah: You might gamble. Yeah. And spend all your money or you might eat loads of cake.
00:28:52 - 00:29:10
Katie: Or you might eat loads of cake. Yeah. And every everybody's different as well. So everybody's got different level. Some people are more dopaminergic than others. So some people can leave the second slice of chocolate cake if they want to because their brain doesn't have the dopamine.
00:29:10 - 00:29:11
Hannah: I do not get it.
00:29:11 - 00:29:14
Katie: Yeah me either.
00:29:14 - 00:29:20
Hannah: Okay. So you feel like that was really helpful to help you reframe why you might want certain things?
00:29:20 - 00:29:46
Katie: Exactly. Yeah. And at a time when you are uncertain, like when you're going through a Break-Up or if you're questioning your relationship, then it sort of gave you gave me a bit of a reason as to why. I might want other things apart from what I've actually got, you know, And it's this dopamine. That's what does that to you. It's normal. It's a brain chemical. I know.
00:29:47 - 00:29:51
Hannah: Fascinating. I definitely need to read that because I've got issues with dopamine.
00:29:51 - 00:29:51
00:29:51 - 00:29:53
Hannah: Really, really like it.
00:29:54 - 00:30:00
Katie: I am definitely a dopamine junkie. And I think you should read this book to find out if you are as well.
00:30:00 - 00:31:34
Hannah: I know I am. I already know. Okay, so my final book and we'll end it on this one is it's called Tiny Beautiful Things by Cheryl Strayed, and she's the woman that wrote Wild, and then Reese Witherspoon played her in the movie, if you recall. And I remember watching that and being like, wow, look at how wonderfully single she is. Isn't this empowering? But she also writes, she wrote an advice column for years called Dear Sugar. So she wrote as this alter ego who's sugar? And people would write to her Dear Sugar. Oh, my God, Katie, this book, I swear to God, I have been listening to it again in the car recently, and as soon as I started listening to it, I was like, Oh, I've already read this, but probably about like five, six, seven years ago. And I'd forgotten, but. I just feel like she just gets life. She knows how to avoid drama. She's been through some hideous, hideous things in her life, which she shares. And it just helps put things in perspective. It helps you understand why you're doing certain things the way you're doing it. She looks at cheating. She looks at grief. She looks at. Icky thoughts that turn you on. It's like all the things that you want to maybe understand but are maybe too scared to think about. It's covered in this book, and I swear to God, it's the book I'm going to give to people for the rest of my life.
00:31:34 - 00:31:35
Katie: That sounds brilliant.
00:31:36 - 00:31:37
Hannah: It's really good.
00:31:38 - 00:31:38
00:31:40 - 00:31:50
Hannah: So we could actually go on and on and on about books that we've read and I've not even mentioned Untamed by Glen Doyle, Glennon Doyle, even not Glen.
00:31:51 - 00:31:51
Katie: Glennon Doyle.
00:31:52 - 00:31:57
Hannah: Of 'We Do Hard Things' Fame. 'We can do hard things.'
00:31:57 - 00:31:57
Katie: We can do hard things.
00:31:57 - 00:32:20
Hannah: We can do hard things. And that book in itself was like one that was the best I'd read about how to deal with divorce and to to support your children through it. So what we'll do is we'll end it here. And if you enjoyed it, please let us know and we'll do another list of our favourite books. And you can even suggest like a subject like great books for this reason, whatever.
00:32:21 - 00:32:22
Katie: We love a good read.
00:32:22 - 00:32:47
Hannah: We do love a good read and we like talking. So it's like the perfect combination of the two. So we could do another episode on that, just let us know. And we're also writing up all the books that we've talked about here, plus a load more for a blog post on Mums' Days. So we'll link to everything in the show notes, but. Right. Thanks, Katie, for joining me.
00:32:47 - 00:32:48
Katie: Thank you
00:32:48 - 00:32:55
Hannah: And for sharing this fascinating reads. And I think we're going to be busy catching up on each other's books.
00:32:55 - 00:32:58
Katie: Yeah, definitely Can't wait to read the Cheryl Strayed one.
00:32:58 - 00:33:01
Hannah: I'll have to get it to you.
00:33:01 - 00:33:01
00:33:01 - 00:33:04
Hannah: See you soon. Bye
00:33:04 - 00:33:04
00:33:04 - 00:33:45
Hannah: All right. Thank you so much for listening and have a great week and I'll see you next time for another episode of Happily Ever After with me, Hannah Harvey. I would be very grateful if you wouldn't mind leaving a review or subscribing because this helps more people find this podcast. And of course, if you've got a friend who you think might enjoy this episode, please do recommend it to them as well. For anything else, your thoughts on the episode or any questions? Please do get in touch with me through Instagram @Mumsdays or you can email me Hannah at Mums days dot com and I genuinely love hearing from you, so please do get in touch, byee.