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Hannah: Welcome to Happily Ever After the podcast where we talk about life's big stories from break-ups and breakdowns to icky secrets and happy endings. It's the stuff that makes us human. I'm your host, Hannah Harvey. I'm a writer and a parenting blogger at Mumsdays.com. That's M.U.M.S.D.A.Y.S .com. I'd be really grateful if you could subscribe and leave a review because it basically means more people can find the podcast. And I also really love hearing from you, so please do contact me through Instagram @Mumsdays with any of your stories really and you know how you relate to the episode or even questions that you may want answering. You can find all the details from this episode in the show notes.
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Hannah: Hello and welcome to Happily Ever After with me, Hannah. Today we are talking about handling disputes and dealing with conflict. And I'm joined by Katie.
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Katie: Hello.
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Hannah: Because you're like my new, like, sounding board, aren't you now?
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Katie: Yeah, I'm here.
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Hannah: We talk things through. You talk about it from your perspective because I feel like I would come at it from a I've just come through a pretty ugly divorce, and it wasn't a lot of fun. But some of the stuff we talk about could be applied to friendship arguments and like all sorts of things where you need boundaries in place.
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Katie: I'm here to offer an alternative opinion.
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Hannah: Thank you, Katie.
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Katie: No problem.
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Hannah: You're so generous. So, yeah. What happens when you need to go to court and it's like the one thing you would. I mean, if you can avoid it, I would highly recommend you don't, because it's very, very expensive. But sometimes it just has to be done. Like there are two sides to every story and both of you are not willing to budge. And I guess it's working out when you need to do these things and when you don't, it's a bit tricky. Um. But there's just something I - well I was talking to somebody about this the other day, and I think it's that there's something about when you separate with your partner that you've been with for a long time that I'm just not sure it can be done in a non messy way because you're so tangled with each other and so emotionally involved that there's literally an energetic pull that has to happen, almost like the separating of an atom. So when you were really like, because I think me and my ex were very co-dependent. That separation was always going to be messy because everybody's hurt.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: Um. So for a while, this is kind of a handy thing to think about, is you can use an app called Talking Parents, which basically records it. It's something that the courts use and it keeps track of every conversation you've ever had.
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Katie: Oh, that's handy.
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Hannah: It can't be deleted and it just gives that little bit of distance.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: So rather than being on WhatsApp or being like texting each other and permanently being connected and which constantly stirs up emotions.
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Katie: What a clever idea.
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Hannah: It's good, isn't it? So my solicitor has suggested that because it just means you don't have to turn it on all the time. It's like being on Instagram. You can go on to see if there's been a message or not, but it means it's not. Coming into your life uninvited, especially if you know you're likely to be triggered. Yeah. You know, because there's like, nasty things are being said back and forth and blame and all that kind of stuff. And it allows you to go that's going to live in that box. And I'll go to it every now and again. But it's not going to be my life while I'm trying to rebuild stuff around it.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: So that was quite a nice like the war can stay there and the rest of my stuff can be here and I'll just go in when I feel strong enough and when I'm, when I kind of have to. Um. And the thing I was going to say about like because when you go to court, so when you file for divorce, that's one separate thread and it does go to the courts, but you don't have to go.
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Katie: Right.
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Hannah: So it just goes to them and they approve it. Then you've got the money thread, which is this is how we're going to separate the assets. And if you agree, it will go to court and approve it. If you disagree, you then have to go and state your case in court. So you've got that side of things and and then obviously you've got the children and how the custody is going to play out. So if you end up going to court for kids, for the kids sake. Uh, you're sent, like, quite a handy piece of paper from Children's Services to sort of guide you through. Making the right choices for them, which I think he was so good. And I think a really good piece of advice is to think of it from, um, because you can be a bit like, ah, their dad's not that I'm saying I did, but like people do go through a process of being like, you absolutely hate them and you don't want them around and you think maybe they're bad, but in reality they're your kids Dad.
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Katie: Yeah, exactly.
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Hannah: And they - what is best for them is to have contact with their dad.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: Uh. So I'd say like, well, the advice that they give is come at it from are they safe?
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Hannah: Yeah.
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Hannah: And what's what needs to be set up so that they can spend time. With, you know, their Dad in a way that's safe.
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Katie: Yeah, because that's what's most important.
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Hannah: In a way that
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: Like works for them and works for their best interests. And I think that's how the court looks at it.
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Hannah: Mhm.
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Hannah: Um, so it's really, I felt like that's a really good way of looking at it when you're dealing with that. Things like they need to be with their dad and as long as they are safe when they're doing it then that's absolutely fine. Yeah.
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Katie: So that's what you should always come back to when you're checking with anything. Yeah. Are they safe?
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Hannah: Yeah. And not. I want to fuck his life up some good. Make as difficult as possible. Because obviously that's not what this is about. And it will come across in court.
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Katie: I bet it's very easy to, like, involve spite.
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Hannah: I think that's the problem is you're you're trying to navigate a new path whilst dealing with a whole host of feeling rejected or feeling hurt or, you know. Whatever he reason is that you've split up on both sides. There's going to be a lot of hurt. So it's hard to then navigate what happens going forward without that stuff getting in the way.
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Katie: And even if it's amicable, you're still heartbroken, aren't you? You know,
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Hannah: Yeah. You're still getting used to what life looks like when you're not with this partner. So it's an interesting one. Um, so, yeah. Not letting spite in the way of what you actually what happens to them in the future. Like I personally feel what is right for my kids is they have 50/50 with their dad.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: So that's how it ended up working out, which is absolutely perfect. And. Yeah, I know that they are happy when they're with him and that he's got everything set up great for them. So it's working well for us. But there was a time when I hated him.
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Katie: Yeah, I bet.
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Hannah: Yeah, you didn't want to, but it just wasn't fun. And yeah.
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Katie: Nobody's ever come out of a divorce completely unscathed, have they?
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Hannah: I don't think I've. Not heard of one. But, you know, if anybody's right in the middle of it, I can say there'll be a time in the future when. You can communicate again. And I mean, hopefully I mean, I've heard plenty of horror stories where people are still really struggling. But if you can get to a point where. Your kid's dad wants to spend time with their kids and is willing to do it, then that's great. Um. But yeah, it is tricky to navigate. Uh, what else have I put? Yes. So. I think when you know what you're going for and what you're aiming for, you really have to stand your ground and be quite brave and be like, this is what's required. The chances are there'll be a meeting in the middle. So even when the judge makes the decision, you can still feel like you've lost, even though actually there was - nobody's lost. This was what was best for the kids. So you kind of have to. It's a real ego test.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: So you're there being like, this is what needs to happen. And then something kind of you end up meeting in the middle and it can be a bit like, Oh. Did I lose? And it's like, no.
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Katie: I know.
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Hannah: The whole process was crap.
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Katie: Yeah. And it has to be a compromise in the end, doesn't it? You know.
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Hannah: It does.
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Katie: I guess that's what the courts are involved for so that they can make sure there's fair. It's fair in the end.
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Katie: Yeah. And there is a process of letting go and then being able to stand back and go, oh no, this is good. Everything's okay. Um, but yeah, there is a while where you have to be like quite. I guess, steadfast and quite brave and and trying not to feel like. Because buttons get pushed and you're. And you're triggered all the time.
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Katie: I feel like if it was something that I had to go through, then I would just lie down on the floor and go, It doesn't matter. Just have what you want. Like, I just don't have a conflicting bone in my body. So it must be really hard to stand up for yourself like that.
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Hannah: Yeah. Yeah, I can't. I wouldn't recommend it, but equally, I would.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: Cause I have learnt a lot. Like, I hate conflict so much. Like, I just want to walk away from it. But like I said, it can happen with friends as well. And sometimes you do have to just. Work out what your boundary is and go. I'm going to stand up for it.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: So, yeah, it's tricky. And the other thing at the time when you're going through the conflict, it's overwhelming. Yeah. And you can feel quite panicky and constantly on edge. Uh. So do you remember that letter my mum said my mum sent where she's like, just do the basics. Yeah. I would say it's very much about keeping life as simple as you can while you're going through that process. Um, and not trying to. Do everything at once. Yeah. Like, obviously, if you've got a job, then great, keep doing that. But if you're trying to re-establish a career at the same time as doing this stuff and looking after your kids and moving house, like going.
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Katie: Through heartbreak, let's not forget.
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Hannah: Well, yeah, you're going through all of this like you're fighting with the person that you're absolutely loved at one point. Yeah, you have to just be really mindful to keep life quite simple and just do the basics. That's what my mum said, wasn't it? And at one point it will be fun again.
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Katie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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Hannah: Just keeping consistent and keeping going through the daily motions that you need to do and maybe putting aside some of the wants.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: And really like looking after yourself. Yeah.
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Katie: And she said didn't she that like the kids, they're safe and they know that they're loved and that's what's most important. Yeah.
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Hannah: They just keep thinking about that when you're going forward. Like as long as they're safe, that's the main priority. It's not about me getting one up on anybody else. It's just about being.
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Katie: The best parent in the world. I'm sure there's you must feel an obligation to do that at times as well.
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Hannah: Oh, yeah. And you're trying to you're suddenly going from being two parents to one and you're trying to be two parents to make up for the fact that you're now one and you just it's not possible. So yeah, um, so one of the things that I found super helpful during that period, so yeah, you keep your life simple, but. Doing things to keep you calm. Yeah. So lots of breathing exercise. And I did start therapy around that sort of time. Um, but, you know, it's like talking things through is really helpful.
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Katie: Absolutely. Yeah, it is.
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Hannah: And yeah, getting into your body and trying to do lots of deep breathing exercises. And one of the really cool things that I did around that time was a cutting the cord meditation.
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Katie: Oh, yes. Yeah, you'd mentioned this before, but I didn't understand what it was. Please explain.
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Hannah: Would you like to know more?
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Katie: Yes, I would.
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Hannah: I think I'm going to do one for the mom group that we're going to start. Great. But basically, it's you are guided through the process of imagining what the energetic cord between you and your partner looks like and then you remove it.
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Katie: Oh, interesting.
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Hannah: And it it's, you know, I don't know how believable it is or whatever, but as a symbolic thing to do.
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Katie: It's very powerful, that.
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Hannah: Stuff. I think it really helped. Like you might end up having to do a lot of times because the chord I imagined was like almost like a tree trunk coming into me. And it was like roots wrapped around me. So that's quite intricate and which you would imagine because you've been with somebody for so many years.
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Katie: That they've gotten into every part.
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Hannah: Yeah. Invited.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: Consensual.
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Katie: Yeah. But everywhere you do you like merge your life with somebody that you marry don't you. So it must be very tricky to then peel away every layer again.
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Hannah: Yeah. And actually I've done it since, um, with Lulu who I can't remember what she does now. It's called sacral. What's it called? Oh, it's kind of like a sacral therapy. I can't quite remember it, but we can link to it in the show notes and. Post. Like all of the trauma and the fighting, we were talking about cutting the cord, but keeping the good bits. Interesting, because in the past I was like, get away from me. I want nothing to do with you. Whereas now it's like we are amicable. Yeah, we can work together for the sake of the kids. So therefore I can't cut him off completely.
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Katie: No, you can't.
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Hannah: So you can cut off the bits that maybe trigger you, but keep the good bits that you like about them.
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Katie: That's true. Because there was a reason that you married them in the first place, you know, and you could use the things that you worked on when you were in the marriage together or the things that worked in your marriage to then help you to co-parent. Yeah, yeah. Makes sense.
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Hannah: And stuff like, you know, he is a good dad and he wants to put them first and be there for them. That's all the stuff that we need to keep.
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Katie: Yeah, absolutely.
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Hannah: And it's important that he knows that. I appreciate that about him.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: Um. So I think, you know, to go from a point where we could only communicate through talking parents to a point now where I say, you know, he's going to come and meet me after this. Yeah. To go to the beach with Nancy so that we can talk about some stuff to do with the kids. That was unheard of. Like two years ago. We couldn't have done it.
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Katie: Yeah, it must be, like, very hard to drop it all as well. I think the thing for me that would stick around would be like passive aggression. I'm really good at that. I am an.
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Hannah: Excellent.
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Katie: Passive aggressive. I'm so good at it. It's like the only type of aggression I have. I've mastered it. I really have.
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Hannah: And I've never noticed really. But maybe I'm a bit. Don't pick up on these things.
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Katie: Yeah, maybe I've been aggressive to you passive aggressive before, and you just haven't noticed. And that's great. Oh, yeah. She loves me. She loves it. Yeah. I don't know whether I have, but it's the only type of aggression I do, and I imagine that's the one that's last. That's the one that's. It must be hardest to get rid of. I mean.
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Hannah: To be honest, we do. We will take the piss out of each other. Yeah. And be like, Oh, your dad loves this, that and the other and and digging a little bit like that. So maybe it does last.
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Katie: That's playful aggression though, isn't it? You know, that's different, I think.
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Hannah: Yeah, probably. I would say there is light at the end of the tunnel. I guess if it's a conflict with a friend, which you can't get past, then it's like, goodbye.
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Katie: Oh well, yeah.
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Hannah: And we didn't probably would have gone that way if we didn't have kids.
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Katie: Yeah, well.
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Hannah: That we do means that we have had to stay in contact and. But at least. We're both doing it with the kid's best interests at heart. And we've got them in the end, and we've had to go through the bowel to get there, but that's fine. Yeah, sometimes you do have to. Not everything is as easy as you want it to be. No.
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Katie: It's not. It must have been a journey.
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Hannah: It was a right old journey. Yeah.
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Katie: I can imagine.
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Hannah: There was quite a lot of manifesting as well, like sitting down and being like writing out exactly what I wanted to happen as if it had happened. That's always really helpful because again, it keeps you focussed on what's really important for the kids.
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Katie: Yeah, and I hear that it's very helpful to write a letter to somebody if you're feeling a certain way about them as well, you know, like I guess that's one way of sort of getting the aggression and the spite out without actually having to affect the person that you're saying it to conflict with.
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Hannah: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. I remember I've forgotten about that. But I remember being told to write a letter and then just burn it. Yeah. So you let the energy out of you so you're not because the only person it affects is when you're pissed off is yourself. Yeah.
00:19:09 - 00:19:25
Katie: I also think it helps you to sort through all of the feelings that you've got and pinpoint the bits that are actually important. It's like, Well, this part of the letter that I wrote here that I actually really feel and I think I should talk to them about, whereas the rest of it's just spite. Yeah.
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Hannah: Or it might be coming back to the maiden complex stuff to do around like abandonment and you were meant to be there.
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Katie: Forever and or any of that stuff that you might have hang ups about that you need to address yourself as opposed to with them. And then it will help you identify the stuff that you do actually need to address with them, I think.
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Hannah: Do you know what this is reminding me of? It's oh, this is so helpful when I do this. It's somebody who works with Wayne Dyer and it's called something like, Obviously I'll be in the show notes when I've worked it out. But it's there's like a list of four questions that you're meant to ask. So you go through the process of whoever it is that's pissing you off and you write out the answer to all of these questions, and then it gets turned around. And instead of it being about them, it becomes about you. And then you realise the thing that's annoying you about them is what's annoying you about yourself.
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Katie: Yeah.
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Hannah: And then you're like, Oh, it's not them at all, is it?
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Katie: It's me. Oh, I think those are our biggest bugbears. We hate in other people what we hate in ourselves.
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Hannah: Yeah. And it lots of triggers are because.
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Katie: Because it's so impersonal. Yeah. Yeah.
00:20:38 - 00:21:16
Hannah: Like we were talking about that earlier. About. I'm watching. I think it's season five of Married at First Sight Australia. Yes. And there's a woman in it who's an instagrammer. And the experts are questioning her boundaries a lot. Yeah, and I was getting triggered by it before they'd even talked about it. And then they were like, God, she's got absolutely zero boundaries and she keeps talking about this stuff. And I'm like, Oh my God, is that me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, what's okay to put out there and what do you need to keep to yourself? And I don't know, like, as far as I'm concerned, as long as it's my stuff to share.
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Katie: Yeah, totally.
00:21:17 - 00:21:30
Hannah: And it's of use and I'm not slagging anybody off. No, because I take full responsibility at the end of a relationship. It's messy for everybody. Yeah. It wasn't just one person's fault. No, No.
00:21:31 - 00:21:52
Katie: And it's your experience as well. I mean, like, I'm a chronic oversharer. So speaking from that point of view, I don't think you have anything to worry about. But like, it's interesting that you felt concerned about that based on watching the show, you know, because maybe that is something that you're worried about in yourself. Yeah.
00:21:54 - 00:22:04
Hannah: And certainly, yeah, seeing it as a trigger. And then you kind of go, Oh, it's actually probably not that bad. Or maybe I just need to accept, well, I think it's fine. That's part of what I feel like I'm here to do.
00:22:04 - 00:22:05
Katie: Yeah, exactly.
00:22:05 - 00:22:07
Hannah: I'm here to overshare on the internet.
00:22:07 - 00:22:09
Katie: And it's like it's still your experience, you know?
00:22:09 - 00:22:55
Hannah: Yeah. Mm hmm. So, yes, it did loads of manifesting. And the other thing I wanted to mention at the end is that if you. It's expensive. Yeah, it's expensive. Going to court. But there is support, obviously, and there's legal aid. And especially if you are at risk or like, you know, there's been domestic abuse history. If you go to your local, um, domestic abuse person, they can point you towards legal aid and stuff like that. So there is help for people because I think a lot of the time. Uh, people might not stand up as much because they're scared. Yeah.
00:22:55 - 00:23:03
Katie: And feel like there's no support. Yeah. Yeah, well, so there is support out there and we'll. We'll link to it in the show notes as well so.
00:23:03 - 00:23:10
Hannah: We can link to it in the show notes. But I just think there's a stigma I guess as well of there is this kind of thing. But you're not.
00:23:10 - 00:23:11
Katie: Alone.
00:23:11 - 00:23:41
Hannah: No, you don't have to be alone in all this. And even just something like going to get in the sea with some random people. Yeah. And, well, to be honest, like, as soon as you start talking to friends about this kind of stuff, it'll come up all over the place. So, yeah, lots of people go through divorce and have a pretty shit time, but hopefully three years on, hello, you'll see that it's it is possible to move past it and have an amicable relationship.
00:23:41 - 00:23:43
Katie: Yeah. And I bet you didn't feel like that was ever going to happen at the beginning.
00:23:43 - 00:23:46
Hannah: No way. No way.
00:23:47 - 00:23:48
Katie: And yet, here you are.
00:23:48 - 00:23:55
Hannah: Here we are. So, yeah. So shall I do it? Cutting the cord. Guided meditation at some point.
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Katie: Love that. Yes. And we can.
00:23:56 - 00:24:06
Hannah: Share it with everybody, because I find it helpful all the time. Like, if you're feeling too emotionally attached to something and it's mulling over your mind. Cut the cord.
00:24:06 - 00:24:16
Katie: Do you think I should do one for my cat? My cat? The emotional dependency I have on him? No. Probably. Yeah. Okay. No, you.
00:24:16 - 00:24:18
Hannah: Can't. He relies on that cord.
00:24:19 - 00:24:20
Katie: I rely on it, too.
00:24:20 - 00:24:33
Hannah: I think it's fine if somebody is, like, in your life. I just think it's not so good if you're worrying about what your boss thinks about this, that and the other. Yeah, Or. The guy that you might have just split up with. Yeah.
00:24:33 - 00:24:40
Katie: I see. So that's what it's for. Not for my co-dependent relationship with my cat. Okay, fine.
00:24:41 - 00:24:43
Hannah: That's necessary.
00:24:44 - 00:24:45
Katie: Yeah, Great.
00:24:45 - 00:24:46
Hannah: Cool. All right.
00:24:47 - 00:24:48
Katie: Okay, Bye now.
00:24:48 - 00:25:29
Hannah: All right, then. Thank you so much for listening, and I'll see you again next time for another episode of Happily Ever After with me, Hannah. It would be amazing if you could leave a review and subscribe. And of course, if you've got a friend who might enjoy this episode, please do pass it on. For anything else, you can get in touch with me through Instagram at Mum's Daze or by my website. Mums days.com. And did you know that I've got a newsletter? So it's the best way to stay in touch and to make sure you don't miss any podcasts or any freebies or competitions that we're running. And again, you can sign up to that through the website.
