5 Best and Worst Things About Divorce Transcript
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H: Hello, and welcome to happily ever after. It's me, Hannah. And today I'm joined by Katie.
H: my good podcasting, chum. Chum Chum
K: That’s me, the chum chum.
H: And I realise, Katie, I've never actually shared your Instagram handle.
K: You do all the time?
H: Do I?
K: Not on the podcast actually, you're right.
H: No. So Katie often comes on and we'll discuss life together from two different perspectives. Where can people find you on the internet?
K: So I guess the place where I'm most present is Instagram. And it's @Katiewomblingfree. Which started as like an interiors account for when I was nesting, unemployed and nesting and looking after my mental health. But it still goes on. So if you want to look at nice pictures of like, bits of art of put up in the house, that's the place to go. I am also on substack - Katiedawson.substack.com. So I write about my life and overshare there as well.
H: Yeah, I love that.
H: After lis- listening? After reading your last substack because you send out a newsletter once a month, right?
K: Yeah, yeah,
H: Of like really great things she's been reading and you read a lot like watching. Your take on MAFS UK, Married at First Sight this year was so good, I then immediately went and started watching it. So.
K: Oh, that's nice. Nice.
H; Thank you for sharing that.
K: No problem. Yeah, it's a guilty pleasure of mine.
H: But has it been in the past though, is the first one?
K: this is new. Yeah.
H: Can I blame Claire Venus for this?
K: No, actually, no. It's my friend. She said to me, like really seriously, like, I need to know if you're gonna watch it this year or not. And I was like, Okay, I'll watch it and spent two days binge watching 11 episodes and think it was really bad for me. I was dreaming about the characters afterwards. So, yeah. So that’s what I like to do good. Yeah.
H: My brother did something similar with Rupaul’s Drag Race.
K: Yep. That one's a good one to binge watch. Definitely.
H: Yeah. So a few years ago, he was like, There's literally nothing more important right now than you watching Rupaul’s Drag Race.
K: I would agree.
H: I did. I haven't seen them like the last few. But anyway.
K: No, same. Yeah.
H: The reason I've got you here Katie.
K: Let’s talk about that.
H: Is because I thought I'd talk to you about the five worst things about divorce. But also the five best things.
K: How nice. Yes. Good. It's important to frame that from both sides.
H: Yeah. Because it's that there are good bits and bad bits let’s just put it that way.
H: You’re up for that?
K: Definitely. Let's hear it.
H: Thanks babes.
K: Yeah, no problem.
H: We’ll talk it through. So okay, starting with the worst, which I think is probably you know, do you don't need to be getting divorced for these to be for either actually to be the case. It's like a bad breakup, which I know you've experienced recently.
K: I’ve had a few of them you know.
H: I’ve had loads of them. Let’s go. Go for it.
K: I think it will relate.
H: And this first one, I remember when I first split up with my first like, proper boyfriend, like, we'd been together about five years, and it was coming to the end and it was not working. And I remember just sitting and thinking, I don't know who I am. When I'm not with him.
H: I don't understand what I have going for me if I'm not with this person. And I think that's quite a common feeling to have when you split up with someone who's been so integral to your life that you live with them. You see them every day. So yeah, that kind of identity crisis, who am I without this person? is probably one of the biggest challenges.
K: Yeah, definitely.
H: And it can leave you being trapped and being like, I'm not going to leave. Because who even am I?
K: Yeah, yeah, I've definitely experienced that and not been through divorce. But like, I think you, you become a ‘we’ after a certain amount of time in a relationship, don't you? And ‘we’ do this and ‘we' like this. And then when you don't have that anymore, it's like, who is I? I’ve made a vow to myself to never end up in that situation again.
K: Yeah, cuz it's, like, so important to make sure that you've still got your identity when you're with someone else, I think because otherwise you do go through the identity crisis at the end of relationship.
H: So it was probably that first relationship was the beginnings of codependency.
K: Yeah, yeah.
H: Like how do I exist without this other person, which is weird, because we'd actually, we were quite independent. Like he did his stuff, I'd been away to like, I ended up in Japan for three months working at Tokyo uni. I don't know how that happened. Because I definitely didn't do much for them. But, you know, I was away. And when I came back, he was like, I didn't really miss you.
K: Oh, wow.
H: Which was the beginning of the end, obviously.
K: Yeah, grim.
H: Even so, even though we had lots of different interests and didn't spend all our time together, I still have that identity crisis.
K: Yeah, you know, that's funny that you say that, because I'm like that as well. Like, I've always been an independent person who's done my own things and have my own friends. And yet, still, when you come out of a relationship, it's like, who even am I anymore, you know, maybe that's just a natural thing that happens. Part of the grieving process.
H: Yeah. Like you're losing something significant whether they're in your pocket or not.
H: It’s a big deal. So yeah, that's definitely a big bit. Obviously, another thing is the general shock. Like, it is a trauma.
K: Yeah, it is.
H: I know, it's not the same as like, it's not death or, you know, a serious accident or an illness or something. But it still feels traumatic to your brain, because it's change. Change is traumatic, isn't it?
K: Especially if it's a breakup that you've been blindsided by, you know, like, if it's something that you weren't expecting to happen, it can hit you just as hard as any of the other things that cause trauma, I think.
H: Yeah, yeah. You're so right. You know, women have reached out to me because of this podcast many times. And it's like, he’s just left.
K: Yeah, yeah.
H: I didn't know. And I had no idea that this was going to happen. What am I meant to do now?
K: Yeah, and that state of shock can last ages as well, like, you end up like in fight or flight.
H: Yes. Yeah. And I think when you're in that bit, the rollercoaster of emotions is just, there's not much you can do other than just ride the wave. And try not to what's the word? go off the rails? I think I want to say too much. Like, try not to lean on very unhealthy habits.
K: Yeah. Try not to spiral I guess.
H: Yeah. Like, really go back to basics. Have I brushed my teeth, have I eaten meals? If you've got kids, what are their basic needs?
H: Being present. Yeah, a really good podcast we did was with Leeanne Bennett.
K: Oh, yes.
H: Episode 28. And she talks all about kind of mental health and divorce. And just covering that whole idea of like, how do you cope, when you don't know from one day to the next how you're going to feel?
K: I think it's really important to go easy on yourself when you're in that fight or flight as well, you know, like you've had something traumatic happened to you. And I don't think we give ourselves enough time to process that. You're meant to sort of just get back on with your life, but it's not like that.
H: Yeah, you gotta talk about it as well.
H: But it's talking about it in a healthy way, which can be tricky as well.
K: Yes, that's true.
H: There’s times when I probably sat with my friends and slagged off my ex for like, much longer than was necessary.
H: But whereas, you know, doing things like talking therapies I found really helpful. And at one point, when I was feeling really traumatised, I call my therapist and I'm like, I don't even know what to do. And he's like, You need to talk to your friends. You need to be talking to people.
K: Yeah. And did you find it made you feel better when you talked about it with your friends?
H: I think so. But you do feel like a burden.
K: Yeah. Yeah.
H: Like I'm gonna turn up and go tell you all the awful things and you need to be careful that people aren't like, oh, drama and gossip.
K: That’s true. But also, if it's making you feel better, they can think all they want to think.
H: Yeah, I mean, you know, pretty quickly, which friends that you want to talk to about this stuff. And which ones you're like, Oh, I think I'll just talk to you about other stuff.
K: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, definitely. You do. You do know those.
H: What’s happened next? Oh, you don't even want to know. Yeah, so I think at that point, my friendship circle got quite a bit smaller. And I was like, I'm just going to, you know, lean on the friends that are happy to hold space for this. Because it is a lot, you know, if people are reaching out to me, there'll be times when I'm like, oh, I need to make sure that I'm looking after myself, while I'm holding space for other people that are going through all this trauma.
K: That’s true.
H: So as the person who's listening, you also need to try not to take on, especially as an empath, what's happening to your friend or whatever. And make sure you do something nice for yourself afterwards. So you're not carrying that around? Because, yeah, I mean, I hear some absolute horror stories. And afterwards, I'll be like, Oh, God, these poor people.
K: And it's like, I think it's really hard knowing your own capacity as well for that sort of stuff, isn't it?
H: Yes. We, you know, both of us are kind of problem solvers. Put me in a crisis, and I will find you whatever it is you need.
H: Like, that's my comfort zone.
K: Yeah. Yeah, it is mine as well. Yeah.
H: But I kind of wish it wasn’t.
H: Because it's also highly stressful for the body.
H: So yes, that whole roller coaster, coaster of emotions, the sadness and the grief. Yeah. Physically, you don't know from one day to next how you're going to feel. And the slightest thing can push you into panic attack. I found.
K: Yeah. I think that's right. And it's so and then you'll blame yourself for that. So I guess it's about like, going easy on yourself when you have a hard time when you weren't expecting to like, because it might it's gonna take as long as it takes for you to feel better.
H: Yeah, exactly. And it's not linear. So you know, three years later, they'll still be times I'm like, fuck sake,
H: Not happy about this situation. Another thing is, oh, we sort of touched on it before, but it can start to highlight addictions.
H: So if you're using something that isn't good for you, as a way to distract yourself?
H: I think that's it. So it's that whole, I'm filling the void. Who even am I? Yeah, I'm just gonna shove some booze on this, or bagels would be mine.
K: we’ve all got our crutches whether that's like drinking or eating too much. Or some people like exercise obsessively, you know, when they're struggling with something, which is probably the least damaging one, you know, but then there's that as well. Yeah, acknowledging your crutches, isn't it? And
H: yeah, trying to moderate is very difficult when you're feeling terrible.
H: And you’re like, I'm going to do this thing, because then at least I'm not thinking about how awful I feel.
H: And actually, when you're in that, feeling awful space, that's the time when you really need to sit and cry.
K: Yeah, absolutely.
H: Do you remember when my homework- I had a life coach when I was. When I first left, I called this life coach. And I'm like, she wasn't life coach, she was a business coach. I was like, I've written a book, I want to get a book published. Oh, and yesterday, I left my husband of 12 years. She's like, holy shit. And I think after about a month of seeing her, she was like, Okay. I was like, obsessively mapping out my week, to the point where I was writing when I was going to have a bath when I was going to drink a coffee. Just to get some control back.
H: And she was like, your homework next week is to do nothing, none of these things. And stare out the window.
H: And that was when like, finally, I started- because I cried before that. I cried for the children, but I never really processed what I was feeling.
K: I don't think you can force that either. It needs to just.
H: You can just sit. You say this about writing. I'm like, you can sit your ass on the front of a laptop. Yeah, put your fingers on the keys and words will start to appear.
H: And it's the same for crying.
K: That’s true.
H: All I had to do was look out the window for like two minutes and then all of a sudden I was like, oh,
K: yeah. No what I mean is like. I don't think you can force it but you can definitely give yourself you can definitely yeah, you can definitely avoid giving yourself space to do that. And you can definitely give yourself space to do that. And I often find when you do give yourself space to do that it comes out.
H: Yeah. Although I have spoken to other friends about this because I've said to another friend, I was like, You need to just sit and cry, let it out. And she's like, I've sat and like…
K: That’s what I mean. Like, you just gotta keep trying until it comes because it will.
H: Yeah. But I'm a very watery person. So
H: Crying comes quite easily for me.
K: Give us a little tear.
H: I couldn't right now. Might later.
K: Okay. Okay, great.
H: Probably could, actually. Okay, do I need to cry?
K: Oh no it’s okay don’t cry.
H: Fear around being alone.
K: Oh, yeah, that's a biggie
H: in brackets forever.
H: Yeah, that whole feeling of like, you've got your whole life in front of you. And I remember thinking like, Who the hell is gonna want me?
H: Which I'm not trying to be like and I’m big headed or anything. But back in the time, I was literally thought I'm turning 40. I've got two kids. I'm just a massive like, I'm just somebody with loads of baggage.
H: And no one will ever want me.
K: Yeah. I think that's the issue with society, isn't it? It's like, you need to find and the Happily Ever After narrative. You know, it's like, you need to find your Prince Charming. When you in your early 20s marry him. And then that's who you’re going to be with forever. But actually, people find love at all ages. Like, it's definitely not like and circumstances as well. Like, it's nothing to do with whether you're a desirable candidate or not. It's about finding the right person.
H: And even before that, the issue there wasn't anybody else.
K: Oh, that's true as well.
H: Who the hell's gonna want me and it's because I couldn't see it myself.
H: So that whole process of working through who I am, who I am on my own, what I'm into. Yeah, I was like, 37 at the time.
H: it wasn't
K: You weren’t a whole 40. God forbid.
H: Looking back now, because you laugh at yourself. Like of course, you're gonna be fine.
K: But even like, even for me, like going back to dating now at 32 I'm like, oh well everybody’s already married. Like, it's, it's just natural for that to go through your head I think. You know?
H: yeah. And actually touching on the whole idea of dating, like, even when you are ready to start dating, It's a bit of a minefield at this age, I think.
K: Yeah, more so than it would be if you were in your early 20s. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
H: Or even later
on? Once you get to like 50. I don't know. Like, I couldn't even really say but we'll say around the 50 bracket, you're probably not going to want kids anymore.
K: No, that's true with the kid thing is a big thing.
H: So people that I might date now you've got one half who are maybe my age, but I've never had kids, but we'd like them. Or you've got somebody who's got lots of kids
K: and doesn't want any more
H: and doesn't want any more. I mean, I personally never want to have a baby inside me again.
K: Right? Yeah.
K: I know. And that's such a strong like that, that's really important to you, you know, it's like when you if you do- if you're trying to find your partner when you're in your early 20s, you’ve got your whole life ahead of you, got loads of time to make a decision about whether you want to have a kid or not. And like when you do it later on, there's then this big sort of elephant in the room, which is about whether you have kids or whether you don't or whether you want them or all of that to consider as well, you know, and it has to be dealt with there and then doesn’t it.
H: Yeah, yeah, kind of does. Like if somebody knows that they definitely want kids you should not be date. Or that you definitely don't.
H: On the subject of people that I have dated.
K: Or if you have kids and they're like I don't want kids that's like a red flag you know?
H: Well we live in learn don't we.
K: we do live and learn we live and learn.
H: lived it. learned it. You can't change people if they tell you something about themselves. Take it as read.
H: like you can't change them and don't try.
K: No I know.
H: Which is something that I do.
H: I’m like oh change your mind.
K: Yes Same. I think that as well. Where it's like you don't even want that person that you think you can change. It doesn’t work.
H: No exactly. And the other thing at this age is everybody you date is somebody else’s ex.
K: Yeah, Yeah, but everybody there, I suppose unless you’re 16, everybody is somebody's ex, you know?
H: But there seems- there's more to play for now.
H: So I went on a date with somebody. Came to my house to pick me up, we went down to the beach and then went for a meal. And then he told me the next week that somebody who knew his ex had seen us.
K: Oh, yeah.
H: And told his ex that he'd been out with some blonde hussie?
K: Yes. You, the blonde hussie.
H: That’s me. But I was like, this person lives on my street.
H: And that's what they think of me.
H: And that's been- obviously it's all word of mouth and Chinese whispers.
H: But it makes me feel very sad and uncomfortable.
K: And the only reason that they've said hussie is because you're on a date, which is like, that’s… If it was a man and they wouldn’t. Yeah, they
H: Yeah they wouldn’t have said blonde. I- What would you call a male hussie? Is there a word for it. Player?
K: Yeah, player. Yeah. Or, yeah, that's it. Or, erm fuck boy.
H: Some blonde, fuck boy. That’s who I go out with.
K: They wouldn't say that.
H: They wouldn’t say it. And I just think I just was like, that's such a bleh thing to say, you know, I'm a single mum living on a street with my kids. And somebody on my street would describe me as that.
K: I know. It's horrible. That's horrible. I'm sorry that that's happening.
H: Thank you Katie.
H: Like it's fine, I’m over it now. But it just made me think like, oh, God, some everybody is somebody else's ex. So you are naturally walking into a potential conflict situation when you date somebody new.
K: Well, and especially when you live in a small place, I guess.
H: That guy was from a different town.
H: Who just happened to know somebody. But I think when there's children involved. It's always going to be a bit hairy. And obviously, the other person's ex partner will always be involved in some way.
K: Yeah, they will.
H: Which is different to dating in your 20s?
K:Yeah, it is.
K: Because a lot of people do have kids when you're dating later on. And that's something that you got to consider the whole blended
H: The whole blended family thing. And my other experience of online dating is there's a lot of people who have not dealt with their the emotional side of their life.
K: Yeah. Yeah, there is. But less of them than there would be if you were dating in your early 20s.
H: No problems then have they?
H: They haven’t been through the trauma of..
K: They may have no problems, but if they do have problems, I certainly haven't dealt with them yet.
H: No, but you’re both the same. You're like, hey, let’s hook up together.
K: Yeah True
H: Whereas later on, I think there's been you know, 10 years later there’s- you're heading into midlife crisis territory, which is notorious for needing a bit of therapy and a bit of help and a bit of considering what you want to do with this next phase of your life.
K: Yeah, you're right.
H: And some people are not there yet. Or they want you to come and fix them.
K: Yeah, yeah. They want you to come and do it for them. Yeah. Yeah.
H: So yeah, the whole- I’d say the dating side of things is definitely the worst.
H: Obviously it can be the best to if you meet the right person.
K: That’s true and it can be quite exciting, you know? But that’s
H: that’s on my best side as well.
K: Yeah, I was gonna say that
H: Hold that thought!
K: Okay yeah sorry.
H: Before we go into the the excellent side of dating. Oh, the massive one is obviously when you’re- the worst bit of divorce is the fighting stage and conflict and going to court. All whilst feeling sad or grieving something that you didn't want to be over. It can make, you know, you very angry and potentially use things to try and hurt the other person.
K: Yeah.Can make you somebody that you're not normally.
H: Yeah, you're anxious because you're going through all of that kind of fighting stuff. Which even if you're, you know, if you go into fight or flight and you prefer flight or freeze, to actually stand up and be like, No, these are the things that I need, in order for me to be able to move on is like, just sickening.
K: Yeah. And there's not all that many situations in life really where you have to take it to court, you know, is there?
H: I mean, it feels serious. There are lawyers involved there are. It doesn't have to be a conflict. But more often than not, if someone is being left, and they didn't want to be left, they're gonna kick out.
K: Yeah, there’s gonna be a fight. Yeah. And it's harder because it's your partner.
H: And they know you better than anybody on the planet, so they know how to inflict wounds as well.
H: And it tends to be kind of a cycle as well. It'll be- they'll be nice, then they'll be wounded because you didn't do what they wanted when they were being nice. And then they'll really lash out and be horrible, and then it will go back round again. Probably on both sides.
H: And I think tapping into your own empathy and being like, what are they going through? is a helpful thing to do.
K: Absolutely. Yeah.
H: But really fucking hard.
K: I bet. Yeah. It must be really hard to think about the other person's feeling. But at the end of the day, you're both going through something horrible aren’t you.
H: Yeah. And the absolute worst thing, which will make six worse things, but we'll just pretend it's five.
H: Is managing the kids.
K: Yeah. Yeah.
H: Like worrying about them and their mental health and trying to keep things like smiling when you want to punch somebody in the face.
K: I honestly don't know how you do it. Like,
H: Well it's done now. It's fine.
K: Well, yeah.
H: But at the time, it was like, Oh, this is properly crap. And you feel guilty as well.
H: For them, that was the main- I remember the next day after leaving, I was like, Oh, my God, my kids. How can I put them through this.
H: But it's also the best
K: Course it is.
H: as well, because they get to see what it's like when you stand up for what you want, and what you need. And you put your needs ahead.
K: And they need that example in their lives, otherwise, they will put up with stuff as well.
H: Definitely. So those are the worst.
H: The best thing, I put freedom, which obviously feels like a double edged sword,
H: if you don't want it, it’s shit. But if you can learn to embrace it, and start doing what, you know, what you couldn't do when you were in a relationship, it's like, the most amazing feeling.
K: Yeah. And it's, it's that's funny that you've put that as one of the best things to come out of getting divorced because I bet if you're in a different relationship, it wouldn't necessarily feel, it would feel freeing to be in that relationship, you know, as opposed to coming out of it. Does that make sense?
K: So that's obviously a sign that you've done the right thing.
K: Not that you need reassurance of that. But you know what I mean?
H: Yeah, I guess it's the feeling of being like in something with somebody. And then if that's suddenly taken away, how you embrace the space around you is a really big deal. And you can make it positive.
K: Yeah, absolutely.
H: Cocoon yourself for a little while and you nest. Soft furnishings we've discussed before, but also being like, what, how can I make the best of this? A big thing for me in the relationship was I felt like I never had any time for myself. I would have to get up at 5am If I wanted to do anything, like work related because there was just so much going on and it was obviously lockdown and three kids a dog, three cats, six acres of land.
K: I know that sounds like a lot
H: And a husband with issues. It was a lot. So to get out of that situation. I was like, fuck me. I'm like, free. So the whole fight and flight thing was big.
H: I was in flight and getting out felt amazing.
H: But also super traumatic.
H: So it's really odd one but now I can look at it and say like, you know, This is my second point actually is the time like I'm co parenting. So I've got 50/50, which means I've got a lot of space to do all the other things that I'm interested in.
K: Yeah, great. So that that is given you your freedom really isn’t it.
H: Freedom. Time. And I don’t- I'm not beholden to anybody. As long as I'm there for my kids when I meant to have them. I could do whatever I want.
K: That’s an amazing feeling.
H: Yeah. I can go away on retreats and tie people up if I want.
K: You can and you will. Yeah, good.
H: But you know, equally, if you're with the right person, you can do that. Anyway.
K: That’s true.
H: Yeah. So
K: That was my point. Like, you know, it obviously feels a freedom coming out of a relationship that you don't want to be in, or that isn't working for you. But it wouldn't necessarily feel like freedom if you're with the right person.
H: Yes. And I actually think a lot of this has to do with me.
H: So I think if I'd said to my ex, I'm gonna go on this retreat. He would have been like, Great go on, then.
H: But in my head, I had to be this particular person, which kept me trapped.
H: I talked about it in the fairy tale episode.
H: Which was way back when couldn't tell you the name. We'll put it in the show notes.
K: We’ll put it in the show notes.
H: But it's that idea that actually, how much are you trapped because of the relationship? And how much is because of what you think you should be doing?
H: And how, you know, what we're controlling ourselves. So I guess you can take the same ingredients and make loads of different cakes.
K: Yeah. Yeah.
H: It’s up to you.
K: Yeah. It is up to you. Yeah.
H: ..which one you want to go for? And that takes time.
H: And you're really, really sad. It takes time to be like, I'm so grateful for this time and freedom. Because of the identity crisis.
K: Well, yeah, it's never gonna feel like that straightaway.
H: No. Or it might do one day and the next thing, you panic.
K: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Like you said before, it's not linear.
H: Yeah. It's like you're up and down all the time. The next one I put is independence, like I say, like you can do whatever you want now.
H: And it's really nice to be independent. Actually, I feel like I've never properly understood how to do it, because I went from one relationship to another.
K: But that's like you say, you put in your own self imposed rules on yourself to be with your partner and not do anything individual there aren’t you?
K: So it's not necessarily to do with a controlling partner. But it is a nice feeling to know that you don't have anybody to report into like, there's nobody like who's going to stop you from…. Not that they would necessarily anyway, I'm not doing a very good job of articulating what I mean.
H: I think we’re both in a similar thing, in that we're saying it's not necessarily the other person in the relationship being like, why you're not doing this to me, which I know people do. It might be like, Why are you always off doing this, that and the other and never spend any time with me. But sometimes it's a self imposed rule that we put ourselves under when we're in a relationship. Oh we're together now. So therefore, we will do everything together.
K: Yeah. Or I'll ask your permission for everything.
H:I think that’s alright.
H: To be like, I’m gonna do this thing, heads up.
H: Is it going to impact on anything that we want to do?
K: Yeah. Yeah, it is. Yeah. And not having to do that is a really nice feeling though.
H: But learning how to do it. Learning how to be independent. You know, when you're in a relationship, one person does their jobs and the other person does the other. Like, what happens when you have to do all of the jobs?
H: I can confirm it's sometimes the shit show.
K: It's a learning curve. Yeah. But then everything's done the way that you want to be done, which is really great as well.
H: Not always Katie.
K: Okay, well, it's for me, there's no socks in my living room that belonged to anyone else.
H: That’s true. There’s only mine.
K: That’s good.
H: That is good. Yeah so dating.
H: That can be the best thing. It can be really fun, really exciting. As well as all the other things you said before.
K: Yeah, it's definitely that one's definitely a double edged sword. But like that can help you rediscover a part of yourself again. You know, like
H: Like a dopamine hit.
K: Yeah. It can help you feed into that dopamine cycle again, that we're trying to avoid. It does do that.
H: Addictions anybody?
K: Yeah, love it.
H: You do have to be careful with that one I think.
K: Yeah, you do. But when you find somebody that you like, that's really exciting feeling as well.
H: Yeah, it is definitely. Even if it's like a short cycle. It's still nice.
K: Yeah, it is. Yeah.
H: That initial like, ooo am I gonna like this person. Yeah, it's quite fun. And you do feel- I felt that it did make me feel younger.
K: Yeah, it does
H: to be like, I've got this freedom to go and date people, and meet new people and..
K: Well, and it's quite like, you're like, ooh, I wonder what's coming next for me. You know that. That's quite an exciting feeling.
H: I do wonder Katie. Okay. Yeah.
H: And so the last thing that I put, that's the best thing, which again, it's like the double edged sword. But if you can embrace it and get that support you need I think, having this space to work out who you really are.
H: is awesome. And there'll be good days and bad days, but you've just got to ride it and, and learn through the bad days and enjoy the good ones.
K: And I think once you've been through that journey, as well, you end up with a much better sense of self, don't you?
H: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. You’re like, Oh, this is me. Actually I am all right.
H: Somebody would be lucky to be with me.
K: Yeah, exactly.
H: Maybe like a new lease of confidence. And you get to explore exactly what you want and how to get there. And it's just you. Ah, the greatest love affair with yourself.
K: Yeah, that's it.
H: There’s definitely some quotes on that kind of stuff.
K: Yeah. Yeah.
H: But yeah, self love and making new friends again. Yeah. Because you've got space to do these things.
K: That’s true. Yeah, there's loads of space involved, isn't that which is nice. It's nice to have that
H: it can feel daunting. But if you can explore it and fill it with things that aren't just bagels.
K: yeah. Well, so I don't necessarily fill my space with new friends. But I do read a lot, like you noticed. And I listen to loads of podcasts and like, I am expanding my mind. And I didn’t have time to do that before. And that’s really nice.
H: Yeah. I wonder if we have learned lessons when we do go into a new relationship?
K: Yeah, definitely.
H: That we can.. If you see me start being like, Oh, I can't be like, be like, Hannah can you go back and listen to that episode?
K: Let’s come back to it one.
H: Well, thank you, Katie.
K: Yeah, thank you. I enjoyed that.
H: Me too. Hope it was useful. if you've got any thoughts on what you think the best or the worst things are, then do get in touch.
K: Yes, please do. Thanks, everybody.
H: Thank you. Bye.